Curse

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

You should list it just so it will be abused.
Cause more grief, create more demand for action and more pressure for a quick respones.

good point but don't see many counters to it and i hated what spirit spam did to the game. people shunned pvp at that time b/c there was nothing else. don't want to see that again.

entropy · Sep 24, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

After the regular recharge of the skill completes. Oh, the recharge is 60 seconds? Well, you're screwed! Ofcourse you also lose the energy investment as well, and still suffer from any exhaustion the spell caused you. Your 'fact' only holds for Signets with an instant recharge (such as Resurrection Signet), and for nothing else. And at the same time you took away what the target was hoping to launch into the fray. Their monk won't cast his heal. Their elementalist won't put up his ward. Their mesmer can't cast his backfire. Even if interrupts did 0 damage, you're offering a significant contribution to your party.
No, it's not. A frag mesmer uses his chain hoping that the opponent either doesn't expect it or isn't prepared to deal with it, if they are, he's pretty much screwed because short of cheap killing power he doesn't have much more to offer a team. An interrupt ranger has tools to stop counters used against him, and he uses them accidentally most of the time while tearing a target up. Oops, was that your Guardian? Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt Spirit Shackles. It's offense and defense in one, and for a defensive/control build it's actually better at offense than standard offense builds due to the interrupts carrying preparations.

I never said that they did not lose their energy or anything of that sort but I've used this in CA and for the most part monks continue to cast. I can usually outspike them if given a little bit of time but it is not like they are completely defenseless. Whenever a new fotm or fad arises or an overpowered build for that matter such as smiting was more people start bringing counters and then that build slowly falls out of fashion. Its the same with all these trick builds such as was the frag mesmer and the whole IWAY team. And I do consider this a trick build for the most part cause it is using the skills in an "unintended" fashion.
Right now I'm mainly talking about CA or 4 man teams. I don't believe even these high powered rangers could take down a well organized balanced tombs team. When I say spirit shackles yes a mesmer could screw him over. So now the ranger will target the mesmer first instead of the monk? And what happens if there are two mesmers or mesmer secondaries. Yes there is a counter to it and there are counters to counters so its moot. I do believe though that you are right on the fact that interuption is mainly defensive but mixed with preps it becomes something it was not meant to be.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Sep 25, 2005, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

this is not a debate on: DAMAGE, ENERGY COST, IGNORING REFIREING RATE OF BOW, or PREPERATIONS.

Yet I'm seeing people calling nerfs for all of those things in this thread. Hence that's why people are bringing up the spirit spam nerfs because people were bringing up all sorts of "problems" with spirits and in the end all these "problems" got "fixed" and that's how we got overnerfed spirits.

If you're all going to call for nerfs...at least know what the root of the problem is instead of calling for nerfs on EVERY singing freaking aspect.

twicky_kid · Sep 25, 2005, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Yet I'm seeing people calling nerfs for all of those things in this thread. Hence that's why people are bringing up the spirit spam nerfs because people were bringing up all sorts of "problems" with spirits and in the end all these "problems" got "fixed" and that's how we got overnerfed spirits.

If you're all going to call for nerfs...at least know what the root of the problem is instead of calling for nerfs on EVERY singing freaking aspect.

the recharge is the root of the evil. just fix it and don't touch anything else. it would be fine.

IxChel · Sep 25, 2005, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

this is not a debate on: DAMAGE, ENERGY COST, IGNORING REFIREING RATE OF BOW, or PREPERATIONS.
this is a debate on the effectiveness of ranger interrupts and their RECHARGE RATES.

I think it is a debate about all of the above items; the combination which makes for an over-powered set of skills. Having interrupts ignore the refire rate of the bow is also a big factor -- why is Quick Shot an elite when these interrupts are just as quick?

smurfhunter · Sep 25, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

I think it is a debate about all of the above items; the combination which makes for an over-powered set of skills. Having interrupts ignore the refire rate of the bow is also a big factor -- why is Quick Shot an elite when these interrupts are just as quick?

good point - QS just shoots faster. punishing shot is the same but it has + damage and it interupts. crappy recharge tho.... hmm...

twicky_kid · Sep 25, 2005, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

good point - QS just shoots faster. punishing shot is the same but it has + damage and it interupts. crappy recharge tho.... hmm...

read above^^^

you can get it down to 3 sec recharge (possibly 4 if its rounded up)

Precur · Sep 25, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28

I think that the issuses about this build have the brought to light, have the Devs acknowledge any of this, how much longer will we have to wait for a fix?

twicky_kid · Sep 25, 2005, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Precur

I think that the issuses about this build have the brought to light, have the Devs acknowledge any of this, how much longer will we have to wait for a fix?

until its abused like crazy in gvg and hoh

Quebec Osti · Sep 25, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Imo, Ranger's damage attacks need a slight buff in dmg (or have 1 or 2 instants cast) and Punishing/savage need a nerf in dmg.

That way, it would still be possible to make efficient ranger spiking if well coordinated without the devastating aspect of having it interupt at the same time.Interupt, dmg and hybrid builds could all be efficient but there wouldnt be "a one and only ranger build" like it pretty much is atm.

Also, I know its been mentioned plenty of times alrdy, but one of the main reason rangers are overpowered at the moment is the current hoh's mechanic.
Imo, Ghostly heros should cap instantly (or very quickly to make interupting it pretty hard) or even better, the HoH should have a totaly diferent mechanic than KotH. As it is, its just ridiculous...

Counters to Hero interupting arent effective enough wich lead to a "who can interupt heros the longest" contest instead of a "who can kick everyone else's ass" contest like it should be.

Phades · Sep 25, 2005, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

A ranger interrupt build is easily avoided, and is subject to ten thousand different ways to shut it down. If ANET nerfs anything with melee or rangers they would be fools. There is blind, necro hexes, stances, monk spells (guardian, aegis), using terrain to avoid arrows.

Lets compare this to a mesmer who is a anti-caster built. How many ways can you defend yourself against one of these? YOU CANT. You have to kill the mesmer fast, or go offensive with another mesmer perhaps. Yet somehow this is acceptable, and yet a ranger who is able to shut down a caster is not acceptable, even when the counters against that build are easily accessible.

One of the very few counters to cheesy mesmers is a interrupt ranger. They've already stripped NR, so encahntments are ridiculous. Like illusionary weapon, ether renewal and the tons of monk enchantments. This was a tombs fix that has made it virtually impossible to counter overpowered enchants in the random arenas.

Casters have it too good in this game. Especially mesmers who arent even subject to line of sight restrictions. Im sure the OP thinks that a frag mesmer is perfectly fine. They want to play an overpowered class with no effective counters against it.

Bias or ignorance, im not sure which this falls under exactly. First off, there are 2 ways to completely neuter any spell based skill, not just interupts. Taking a mesmer secondary completely neuters their ability to use interupts and gain no side effects from their use, due to the unsucessful interupt. Mesmer skills, with one exception and on a 45s timer, only affect spell type skills. Rangers affect every skill. Ranger counters are fewer than warrior counters and only a fraction of those actually hinder the rate at which the arrows sucessfully land in the same time frame. Condition style counters are quick, cheap, and easy to remove and come from the very sources that you would be targeting to interupt. The other style of coutnters in the form of hexes are not that easily piled up, especially on ranged attackers who do not bunch up on a target like warriors are forced to do so in melee. Then there is the issue of the acutal energy cost. Using the right bow ends most of the discussion of arrow that stray from the target as well. If the target is fleeing away from you, they arent casting anyway and in giving persiut a mesmer wouldnt be having the projectile arrow in flight that may or may not stop the next skill use due to the change in actions. The whole hide behind cover can work, but then the ranger is not a soft target like a mesmer and can just simply move into a better position while the target is moving.

I mean seriously, do you even look at the mesmer skills before talking about how the work? It sounds more like you want to have everything at the same time. Judging from the ranger skill lines that is not too far from the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

the recharge is what makes them so deadly in the first place. the dmg and refire rate is fine considering you do have to hit with the arrow and it does have a slight delay on interrupt due to flight time. refire couldn't be abused with recharge a little higher keeping them from being spammed. dmg would be lowered b/c less attacks in xx seconds. not like this has to be changed much. even a 13-15 sec recharge would put it into balance.

not going list an entire team build b/c i'm trying to prevent the abuse from happening.

You would have to slow them down into the leech signet range in order to have any real impact. Small end changes with that kind of effect stacking would have virtually no effect on the application of the skills considering the recharge times of the skills they are used to counter.

If you were to remove the effect stacking entirely from the game and only allow for the highest to take precidence, it would be a step in the right direction and would flatten out a few other "peaks" present within the game now. That is not just a ranger issue, its an issue somewhat common within the game. If the effect stacking was removed then the skills were looked at for more "reasonable" effect timers, then a change like that could have a decent effect without over nerfing the skills individually.

cookiehoarder · Sep 25, 2005, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

watch everyone start using shield up and shield of deflection soon...

Already use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

at high expertise and high marksmanship alone, a ranger can almost spam interrupt bow attacks and deal good dmg at the same time.

rangers can interrupt everyone. most of the interrupt bow attacks halt action (melee attack, bow attack, spell/skill casting, running?, eating? etc). cheap to use and fast recharge.

kinda overpowered.

You don't use high marks in a ranger spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Mega

Wow. As I predicted when NR got nerfed because nobody could beat it...interrupt teams would form. Now, there are calls for that to be nerfed as well. Why is it that whenever Rangers find yet another way to defeat noobs, its all "nerf them! too overpowered!"

It's not just defeating noobs. It's defeating good teams that actually are being original.

Precur · Sep 25, 2005, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

good point but don't see many counters to it and i hated what spirit spam did to the game. people shunned pvp at that time b/c there was nothing else. don't want to see that again.

Well its seems that we are reaching that point or at least I have, the Arenas are full with this type of Ranger. I just popped over to Tombs for a looksee and guess what ..

Need 2 Qs Rangers
3 QS Rangers to complete group
Rank 3 - QS Ranger Lfg

I can understand that they can not anticipate all possible inbalences. A-Net needs to nip this in the butt NOW not weeks down the road as they did for the Spirit Spamming. Oh well, I was expecting a much faster response to these type of issues, the longer this drags on, greater the negetive impact this will have on the game. What's up Devs?

cookiehoarder · Sep 25, 2005, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Precur

Well its seems that we are reaching that point or at least I have, the Arenas are full with this type of Ranger. I just popped over to Tombs for a looksee and guess what ..

Need 2 Qs Rangers
3 QS Rangers to complete group
Rank 3 - QS Ranger Lfg

I can understand that they can not anticipate all possible inbalences. A-Net needs to nip this in the butt NOW not weeks down the road as they did for the Spirit Spamming. Oh well, I was expecting a much faster response to these type of issues, the longer this drags on, greater the negetive impact this will have on the game. What's up Devs?

Are you in American districts?

tomcruisejr · Sep 25, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiehoarder

You don't use high marks in a ranger spike.

i experimented with "Read the Wind"

:P

Akathrielah · Sep 25, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quebec Osti

Imo, Ranger's damage attacks need a slight buff in dmg (or have 1 or 2 instants cast) and Punishing/savage need a nerf in dmg.

That way, it would still be possible to make efficient ranger spiking if well coordinated without the devastating aspect of having it interupt at the same time.Interupt, dmg and hybrid builds could all be efficient but there wouldnt be "a one and only ranger build" like it pretty much is atm.

Also, I know its been mentioned plenty of times alrdy, but one of the main reason rangers are overpowered at the moment is the current hoh's mechanic.
Imo, Ghostly heros should cap instantly (or very quickly to make interupting it pretty hard) or even better, the HoH should have a totaly diferent mechanic than KotH. As it is, its just ridiculous...

Counters to Hero interupting arent effective enough wich lead to a "who can interupt heros the longest" contest instead of a "who can kick everyone else's ass" contest like it should be.

Ranger damage is already potentially the second highest in game (right under warrior dps), why make it any higher?

But yeah HoH should be more than just "well let see if we can keep the enemy ghosts interrupted for the last 2 minutes".

cookiehoarder · Sep 25, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

i experimented with "Read the Wind"

:P

Favorable>Read

You should be using a 20 damage kindle instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

Ranger damage is already potentially the second highest in game (right under warrior dps), why make it any higher?

But yeah HoH should be more than just "well let see if we can keep the enemy ghosts interrupted for the last 2 minutes".

Yum...Shield of deflection and Guardian!!

Akathrielah · Sep 25, 2005, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiehoarder

Yum...Shield of deflection and Guardian!!

Yay for well of profane!

Hurray for rend and rigor mortis!

Goonter · Sep 25, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Of the suggestions made to nerf the interrpting chain, long recharges on the skills seem like the lest favorable, imo.

I do think savage shot could use some recharge adding. But thats it.
The suggestion for a cooldown period doesnt seem all to bad. That stops the chain interrupting.
The removal of preps from skills that shot with a cast time of 3/4 would stop the spike damage.
That would be it. We are back to normal.
I personally count on the timed interrupting effect of ranger interrupts, not all this new stuff.
An lenghty recast on these skills would make them bonus quick damage skills with the bonus of interupting in longer intervals of attack. Or at least, thats how I would play them.

The only class I can see thats screwed from rangers intrupting are necros.
Monks and mesmers are hard to interrupt. (fastcasting, shuck-and-jive mesmers that is)
Elementist have glyph of concentration which is a very good skill.
Warriors generally dont suffer from ranger interupts and even still, they have stances.
That leaves necros, and for some reason, they go unnoticed, so...good for them.

twicky_kid · Sep 25, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Of the suggestions made to nerf the interrpting chain, long recharges on the skills seem like the lest favorable, imo.

I do think savage shot could use some recharge adding. But thats it.
The suggestion for a cooldown period doesnt seem all to bad. That stops the chain interrupting.
The removal of preps from skills that shot with a cast time of 3/4 would stop the spike damage.
That would be it. We are back to normal.
I personally count on the timed interrupting effect of ranger interrupts, not all this new stuff.
An lenghty recast on these skills would make them bonus quick damage skills with the bonus of interupting in longer intervals of attack. Or at least, thats how I would play them.

The only class I can see thats screwed from rangers intrupting are necros.
Monks and mesmers are hard to interrupt. (fastcasting, shuck-and-jive mesmers that is)
Elementist have glyph of concentration which is a very good skill.
Warriors generally dont suffer from ranger interupts and even still, they have stances.
That leaves necros, and for some reason, they go unnoticed, so...good for them.

wrong my friend.

hammer warriors will get 1 attack vs 4 from the ranger. swords and axe doesn't get much better.

ele are just about completely screwed even the ele/mo. glyph is not the answer. you add 5 energy and 1 sec casting to the next spell you need to cast + .75 after cast for using glyph.

necros fall in the same boat. they are just SoL.

monks are so predictable its not funny. breeze at 1/4 life, healing touch at <50% hp. only protection skills are the exception with 1/2 or 1/4 casting times. still haven't been able to interrupt reversal with distracting yet.

mes are probly the least affecting with shackles and fast cast but even they can be interrupted.

rangers just interrupt each other. will come down to who ever interrupts the kindle or troll.

no matter what you face it doesn't lose any affectiveness.